Curse

.killjoy · Apr 27, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Everything is getting nerfed...

Carinae · Apr 27, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

I played MM before and I know how you feel on this huge nerf. I think too for 10 is too short(15 is correct). But I saw something behind this nerf: Alliance battles. Anet nerf it for this. A necro with almost 20-25 (exclude Flesh Golem) minions in a battle is a little overpowered. If you blame for only PvE and restore like before, Alliance battle players will blame at their side to nerf MM.

I don't give a crap about MMs being strong in Aliance battles. Did Anet give the community a chance to adapt to MM's in PvP? Nope. And there were lots of counters, some of which were TOO powerful in their own right: Verata's Aura, Unnatural Signet, Scourge Healing/Sacrifice, JI and Smiting in general, corpse denial, gank the master, interrupts, and on and on....

Why not give the community the chance to adapt to MMs, before changing the ENTIRE ARCHITECTURE of Minion Mastering?????

Not one of those counter-MM strategies was touched, and will still work against a Flesh Golem + 9 Vamp Horrors. If they wanted to make it harder to maintain large armies, fine, but the whole challenge was to raise as many as possible....that was what took skill about being a MM: How many can you raise and maintain??

You can judge for youself how many people were able to control large numbers of minions, but many people here in this thread have said "how often do you have more than 10?", um...nearly always! Typically 20-40, sometimes twice that. Is that overkill for, say, Ettin farming? Yea, sure. Who cares, we can do that still with just 10. But individual minions are worthlessly weak in SF and other endgame instances. Their whole strength was in numbers both in offense and as meat sheilds.

Lets make it so one MONK can only heal four players max! That's about how ridiculous this limit is.

If you were an explorer like me, raising large numbers was crucial, because you would often move through areas with no corpse monsters: Ice/Stone Golems, Azures, Undead/Enchanted Armors and you need large numbers of minions to be able to reach the next oasis of corpses.

Boo on a very very bad change.

Remove the limit Anet! I can adapt to the other changes, and they adequately constrain the number you can raise and support. The minion limit adds insult to injury.

Raziel665 · Apr 27, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

After playing a bit, I think I like it better this way. You can take other corpse using skills along without feeling like your wasting a corpse. Hell, you could even take a 2nd MM with you.

Serra Knightfang · Apr 27, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Um...I never felt like I was "wasting" a corpse. This nerf is WAY too much WAY too fast. I played Alliance battles during the PWE and MMs were overpowered there...but I can't think of any other instance where they were overpowered. If they insist on a cap I think it should be your level in Death (i.e. 16). Verata's is pretty much useless now for large numbers.

As for secondary: I see no other choice but to go with monk. HA and HB are invaluable!

On the other hand. How can we all sit here and gripe when we haven't tried out the new summons. 1 lvl 26 Flesh and 9 lvl 18 Vamps is gonna be pretty sweet. The vamps should mean that we can spam BotM all we want.
The verdict is still out in my opinion

Fred Kiwi · Apr 27, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Its always transferred all negative conditions to the MM...

Yes the timing changes will affect MMs, but not as much as the death magic limit on summon counts. Note that they improved BoTM to offset the VS change.

Its not so bad, just a reduction to the size of MM armies (but with more powerful summons is that so bad?)

why couldn't they just limit the number of vampy horrors? I think they are the cause of the nerf

Evilsod · Apr 27, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Will you stop f*cking saying MMs where overpowered in Alliance 12vs12s. They were deadly, so f*cking what! Bring EoE and throw yourself at him, he can't survive long, kill off a few minions and watch the rest drop dead. Bring Veratis Aura and steal the entire thing from him! Its the most counterable thing in the game beyond Plague Touch vs Throw Dirt.

10 max is just ridiculous. Guess it means i'll be dropping the odd skill for Putrid Explosion or Well of Suffering (most likely VS since its shit now)

suiraCLAW · Apr 27, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

only good point about the nerf is that not everybody will use the golem (because glyph of renewal becomes interesting).

10 max minions: that sounds like anet tries to stop farm party's that use the minions for meat wall (like sf and ToPK)

Fred Kiwi · Apr 27, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Maybe Anet don't want everyone to be forced to run at least 1 anti-mm skill in their build.

but thats the whole idea, countering. And not every player has to have a counter. Thats just like saying, hey why do we need to have warrior hate?

See kaldeks or carinaes post over there ^ sums up everything

Karmaniac · Apr 27, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

After the initial shock, denial and disbelief I've concluded that the MM is far from being dead and buried. Only the way it functions has taken another posture. I thought that MM's were going to get sooner or later anyways they were just too powerful. The cake eating is over. As the nerf indicates you have to abuse your minions more instead of lugging them around. A few options have already been suggested so we just have think outside of the box. Go beyond the fotm. Cut the cookie in ways not thought before. And stop writing corny summarisations like this.

Pity the folks not having Factions tho. (as if anyone cared about them)

xxSilhouette · Apr 27, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

OMFG! Max minion is 10 and that is NOT a small number, can't really say it's a nerf.

How often you see MM with more than 10 minion? Expert level MM can maintain 12, compare to 10, that's not a big change.

Ive been in a group with someone who had 30 alive, or course they had help from a monk who was using heal area, as well as myself who was using heal area, and they had 16 in death, but we counted a total of 30 minions at one point! they usually average at around 20ish...

Jetdoc · Apr 27, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Dwayna's Sorrow looks to be a very powerful skill for N/Mo's, and actually could cause some minion masters to be healing monks in disguise.

It seems that being a minion master as any other secondary other than monk is now inefficient and impractical. Minion bombers, on the other hand, may be a nice substitute.

Evilsod · Apr 27, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Maybe Anet don't want everyone to be forced to run at least 1 anti-mm skill in their build.

Perhaps they should nerf every single spike build to stop people having to bring counters for them?

Actually why not just nerf PvP completely, then they can kill 2 birds with 1 stone, nerfing spike builds and nerfing balanced builds, then everyone can be a winner.

MelechRic · Apr 27, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

I've just been running my MM with Vamp Horrors and Regular Horrors. (I still haven't found the Golem Elite yet.) Anyway, it's not too hard to get 5 Vamp Horrors up (recharge time is the limitting factor here.) I have to say that I don't even bring Verata's Sacrifice along anymore. Vamps heal me really quickly and with BotM I can keep them up by spamming. They heal me, I heal them... the cycle of life... err death. Anyway, I feel like a lot of other MM's here... there are now other corpse skills open to me. Sure I miss the crazy big 20-30 minion armies I could raise, but now I can do something like use Putrid and not get balled out by the group.

Farming... that's another story. I'm going to have to find some cherry spots and see what I can do.

emopunky · Apr 27, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

the only reason i played mm was to raise a sh!t load of minions to do all my work. isn't raising a lot of minions the fun of being a mm? :[ oh well, its not like you used mm to farm other places except topk, and sf mainly

Solberg the Exiled · Apr 27, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Yup, MM has been severely nerfed. It's too bad, I always felt that the MM was a cool style of play. Maybe if they made it so that minions no longer recieve -1 degen every 20 sec, then this nerf might be justified, but this is just....bad.

Xpl0iter · Apr 27, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Why not nerf pvp just cause an MM got nerfed or capped down to 10. Look at the elite you have been given for golem. MM were the deciding factor of Alliance battles, and most farming spots only used mm, and ignored a whole damage class. Now, you need Either 2 MM or 1 MM and 1 Nuker to dish damage out. I noticed it last nite when i did the first faction mission. An ele did awesome damage with MM. MM blocked the foes while dishing out damage, and kept others safe, an ele ( my self ) did support damage to take spiritis down. Seems more of a balance ingame build to me. I feel more viable since MM need others too now.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Serra Knightfang · Apr 27, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Don't get me wrong when I say MMs were overpowered in alliance battles...they were only overpwered cause ppl weren't bringing the counters for them. WIth the counters I don't see and problem in them being there

Trin Storm · Apr 27, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unchain

Can't do it anymore. No more solo Thirsty for me anymore. I'm done with MM until I have the new skills.

I think that would be the point of the nerf - it was never intended that someone could solo a mission.

MM were way too powerful rasing the undead horde. Fun - sure, but not a balanced at all. I think it is a good thing. They may have over nerfed VS - and time will tell if they buff it back.

About time if you ask me. I'm glad they tamed it down. Some of you act like 8 -10 'pets' is useless. Please - you can still MM - its just in a more balanced way. If you really want a horde - take two MMs

Chillin-N-Killin · Apr 27, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

you know i see more mm's looking to group with more mm's 3 mm's 30 minions if you can keep them alive. mmm did i stumble on to something here? did not read all post so sry if this was brought up.

Xpl0iter · Apr 27, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chillin-N-Killin

you know i see more mm's looking to group with more mm's 3 mm's 30 minions if you can keep them alive. mmm did i stumble on to something here? did not read all post so sry if this was brought up.

There is a small thing that one should realize my friend. An MM doesn't start working unless there are corpses, and if there are 3 out of 8 people who are MMs, well, you need 2 monks atleast. So what else you got left? Rangers, Warriors, Ritualist, Eles, or Assasins? You didn't sound balance when you said 3 MMs. consider the cap like this, Now, MM also depends on other do to things for them, while they reply the favour by creating a tank like damage dealing army. It seems Way more balanced than before. I mean common, if you think MMs were not overpowered, why did every single build had an MM involved in it? I am saying all this just not as an ele, but as a fellow team members who noticed this fact in a mission last nite. i could stand between minnions and take care of the foes while mm guard every one very effectively. I killed the foes for MM, and MM created the Tanks for us. Well BalanceD.

Regardz
An Elementalist.